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 Some Buried Caesar (1939) 
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New post still Archie and Lily
I take Archie's dancing at face value.
Some men excel at golf, some at tennis. Archie danced. It is his sport and he is good at it and he enjoys it. Furthermore it can be done in close proximity to pretty girls, which makes it even better.
I wonder, given the choice, would Archie go to a gym and torture himself on a Nautilus machine and a stair-stepper or prefer to keep in shape by dancing and walking all over NYC on his errands?
He dances with many but seems to breakfast only with Lily.

Well, one possible exception - Lucy Valdon (Motherhunt).
I think she is the only woman Archie doesn't feel superior to. She has a great sense of obligation and responsibility, noblesse obliege and all that. She makes her own decissions while still being feminine and vulnerable (to Archie). Above all, she is a lady. Penelope Miller played the role to perfection.
I sincerely hope that dancing in the street was not the only highlight of their evening. Cramer and Wolfe have their doubts.
I also love he scene at Lucy's house, where Wolfe and Archie are in hiding. A and L want Wolfe to go to bed, but he wouldn't budge from that chair. :wink: Another interesting moment towards the end of this episode, after the culprit is arrested and Wolfe taken in as well. Everyone leaves the house, except Lucy and Archie. Saul seems to be a co-conspirator at that time.
Of course, it can never be. Archie would be Prince Phillip to Lucy's Queen Elisabeth. His nature does not lend itself to that role.

If you are still reading, I'll ramble on with one more subject: Orrie.
I knew Orrie first from the TV shows, since I came to the books after the 'Golden Spiders' pilot.
I really dislike the fact that Stout thought little of Orrie. Trent McMullen (SP) deserves better! I consider him crush-inducing.
Furthermore, when the show ended several cast members came to the now defunct NW-TV board to sell things.
Trent posted only once and it was solely to thank the fans for their support and loyalty. That's a gentleman in my book. I wish him well!
I have so far refused to read 'A Family Affair' for obvious reasons. (ok, call me silly).

Just One more thing, as Lt Columbo would put it, you are right, mothering is too strong a term.Let's call it hovering. They both (Fritz and Wolfe) do it. They fuss when Archie takes off on a mission, equipped with a gun; or when he skips meals 'Archie you must eat!' ; or when he comes home very late or very early, as the case may be.
They worry about Archie bringing a woman into the household. For Fritz it is territorial, the kitchen is his fiefdom; while Wolfe finds it intolerable on all levels.
They are of course quite right. It would be a disaster of gigantic proportions! :shock:

Sorry this is so long 8)


Wed, 11 Jul 2007, 23:52
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New post Re: still Archie and Lily
starfish wrote:
Sorry this is so long 8)

On the contrary, go ahead and be as long-winded as you wish. :lol: I for one enjoyed reading your analyses, and this is no mailing list where bandwidth is of any potential concern. This is a web-based board and so anyone who's not interested in a particular post can simply skip it and move on to the next one. 8)

A web-based forum like this is, unlike an email-based discussion list, very well suited for more detailed analyses or deliberations, such as yours in the foregoing post, because these posts are here to stay. They can provide impetus for future discussions even years after they were originally submitted here.

(There have been many fascinating contributions to this Rex Stout board over the last few days, to which I'd like to react in one way or another, but my workload this week has been enourmous, so there has been no time for me to post here this week so far. :roll: Perhaps later today...)


Thu, 12 Jul 2007, 9:20
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New post Lucy and Orrie
starfish wrote:
Well, one possible exception - Lucy Valdon (Motherhunt).
I think she is the only woman Archie doesn't feel superior to. She has a great sense of obligation and responsibility, noblesse obliege and all that. She makes her own decissions while still being feminine and vulnerable (to Archie). Above all, she is a lady. Penelope Miller played the role to perfection.
I sincerely hope that dancing in the street was not the only highlight of their evening. Cramer and Wolfe have their doubts.
Of course, it can never be. Archie would be Prince Phillip to Lucy's Queen Elisabeth. His nature does not lend itself to that role.


OK, the situation calls for gushing comments, so I'll use some. I don't apologise :wink: I think we are of a like mind, starfish - I'm currently re-reading The Mother Hunt, after re-watching the episode, because it always restores my faith in Archie and the corpus. And you have described Lucy perfectly - I've often wondered how Wolfe might describe to Fritz his fear that Archie might marry her, and you have it in a nutshell - not only is she proud and independent, like Lily, but she also appeals to Archie's romantic, protective side as a truly feminine and tender creature; I imagine Wolfe could see this before Archie! (I love Lucy's note to Archie, and Wolfe's reaction!) I think that maybe Lucy's charcacter would make it easier for Archie to consider a more serious commitment with her, because she is wealthy and intelligent, like Lily, but not as fiercely 'competitive' or stubborn as Miss Rowan.

And I, too, hoped that Archie was trying to get across that Cramer did have it right, and he did spend the night with Lucy! :wink:

I think Maury Chaykin also played that episode to perfection - his response of 'Yes, you have' to Archie's challenge, 'I've seen Mrs Valdon twenty times to your one', is loaded with meaning and yet spoken so softly that I always enjoy that scene. This and 'Christmas Party' are two episodes where the bond between the two comes to close to being spoken out loud - Wolfe really cannot bear the thought of losing Archie, but only shows his vulnerability when he is uncertain as to Archie's loyalty (although I don't know why he ever doubts him, or believes his stories about getting married!)


starfish wrote:
If you are still reading, I'll ramble on with one more subject: Orrie.
I knew Orrie first from the TV shows, since I came to the books after the 'Golden Spiders' pilot.
I really dislike the fact that Stout thought little of Orrie. Trent McMullen (SP) deserves better! I consider him crush-inducing.
Furthermore, when the show ended several cast members came to the now defunct NW-TV board to sell things.
Trent posted only once and it was solely to thank the fans for their support and loyalty. That's a gentleman in my book. I wish him well!
I have so far refused to read 'A Family Affair' for obvious reasons. (ok, call me silly).


Another 'yay' from this corner! :wink: I, too, am a little apprehensive about reaching the end of the corpus, because I feel that Stout was unfair to Orrie throughout the corpus, and never really maintained his character with any fairness. When Johnny Keems was killed, Orrie suddenly stepped into his role, when Orrie was never as conniving or oily as Johnny before that - Johnny would have jumped into Archie's job if he could, and if Wolfe would have ever considered it, whereas Orrie, I feel, merely admires Archie, and knows that he doesn't stand a chance, for all the times that Wolfe calls him in to 'temp' in the office. The ultimate betrayal, of course, is AFA - I haven't read it, so I'm not aware of the context, but I don't believe there has ever been any suggestions that Orrie could be such a Jekyll and Hyde character as to suddenly turn on Wolfe and the 'boys' like that - Johnny, yes, Orrie, no. I think Stout blundered in dispatching Johnny - Orrie was framed, guv! :shock:

And I shall read AFA when I come to the end of the corpus, but only to make my own mind up about Orrie!

Thank you for feeding my devotion, starfish! :D

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Thu, 12 Jul 2007, 11:51
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Wow!! Posts will be present for years?
That is a sobering thought.
Just think, one posts what one believes to be an exceptionally intelligent and pithy comment, only to discover at a later date, that it was really rather boneheaded, but will stand forever!
Have mercy!
:oops:
Thank heaven for the anonymity of the net! 8)


Fri, 13 Jul 2007, 2:54
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New post 
starfish wrote:
Have mercy!

Ah, no need to be paranoid. :P

As to deleting one's own earlier posts, any registered member of the forum can do so at any time. For example, you could register here under the fully anonymous nickname Starfish and this would allow you to delete any of your own posts, even years later.

But, I wouldn't know what's so embarrassing about changing one's own opinions, even firmly held beliefs. It's fun, as long as you do it sincerely and not for the outward effect this may create on your audience. It's a sort of intellectual exploration. I find I need to revise, re-adjust and re-assess my own opinions and beliefs all the time (every day), but I find this necessity to be both amusing and intellectually stimulating.

For example: even though, as of today, I continue to claim that Where There's a Will is the worst Wolfe novel of them all, quotations have already been posted that suggest I might be wrong in that assessment, and I won't hesitate to revise, or even reverse, my original judgment, publicly, should a re-read of the novel make it necessary. :)


Fri, 13 Jul 2007, 8:33
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New post re: opinions
I may not be ready to concede that all Stout's stories are equal masterpieces, but I will say, that Danielle's cover design of 'Black Orchids' is indisputably one.
There is no room for improvement. It is simply perfect! (imho) 8)


Tue, 17 Jul 2007, 18:19
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I agree with you. 8) The rest of Goodwingrad's creations can be admired here, for anyone who might not know what we're talking about. Let's hope she'll be given similar assignments in future, too. :wink:


Tue, 17 Jul 2007, 19:12
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