Reading Nero Wolfe Stories On the Internet?

The format used on this website for presenting full digital texts of selected notable literary works. Left, an essay by Ralph Waldo Emerson; right, an essay by Arthur Schopenhauer.

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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 11:12:12 (GMT -0500)
Subject: RE: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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Dear List,

As a publisher and used book dealer who loves Nero Wolfe and Rex Stout I
feel constrained to remove a couple of paragraphs that I have deemed too
vituperative and impolitic. Suffice it to say that with regard to those who
practice and those who are apologists for the theft of intellectual property
the terms "flummery" and "pfui" were employed.

Pirating Rex Stout Nero Wolfe stories:

1. Placing in copyright works, such as ANY of the Nero Wolfe stories, on the
Internet and providing download facilities for these works so that they can
be further distributed, copied into hard copy, etc., is illegal, unethical,
and by its nature deleterious to the interests of the copyright holder, not
withstanding any sophistry by the apologists for such theft or the bogus
"research" fig leaf that the pirate, in this case, tries to place in front
of their exposed position.

2. The pirated publishing of any copyright work always causes economic harm
to the copyright holder in, at least, the following ways:

a. By decreasing demand for legitimate copies of the book a pirated copy
undermines the copyright holder's position and ability to negotiate a price
for the book's republication with a publisher. A pirated Internet copy is a
thousand times worse. Once the initial work of making the internet copy
available has been done, further reproduction and distribution can be
accomplished at almost no cost. Unlike a traditional prate who make a finite
number of hard copies of a work, and internet copy makes further pirated
copies cost free and almost inevitable, and there is no way a publisher can
tell how many have been distributed For instance: I as a publisher may be
interested in getting the rights for "Prisoner's Base" to publish a new
edition because I have made a determination that I can sell 20,000 copies,
making it a profitable venture. However, now I see that a pirated copy has
been put out, world wide and will be copied by numbers of my formerly
potential customers. Immediately, the amount of money I can afford to risk
in paying the copyright holder goes down, my interest in publishing the book
diminishes, and both I, the copyright holder are harmed.

b. As shown above a pirated edition lessens the chances a pirated work has
of being a viable project for a legitimate publishing venue.

c. Pirating the work successfully diverts the energies of copyright holders
and publishers alike to fight the copyright infringement, witness this
email, thus adding another harm and cost to the legitimate owners of the
copyright of the work.

I will just touch on the fact that the high prices charged by a used book
dealer for out-of-print copies of a copyrighted book are market indicators
to both publishers and copyright holders that there is a value in reprinting
the book. This was one of the indicators, for instance, that led us to seek
the right to reprint [...].

The sale of a scarce commodity, such as the already existing body of copies
of a legitimately printed books, is a knowable and finite economic activity
which a copyright holder an publisher can calculate when deciding issues of
re-print etc. In addition the used book trade is an ancient and honorable
trade which is fully understood by all parties to any writing/publishing
activity.

We used and rare book dealers are neither parasites nor blackmailers and
spend much of our time keeping worthwhile books circulating to those who
care about them, need them and want them. Many an important book would be
unavailable or much more scarce and expensive if it were not for the work
done by used and rare book dealers to find copies, keep them in good
condition, and offer them for sale.

Nero Wolfe often charges thousands of dollars for the use of his intellect
to solve a crime. Yet, a used book dealer charges $10.00 or even $50.00 for
the use of his or her knowledge, endeavor, and perspicacity in snatching a
Nero Wolfe novel from the ignominy and possible oblivion of a yard sale,
transporting it to his or her place of business, assessing and describing
its condition, paying to place it online or in a store with costly rent, all
to bring it to a place where you, the Nero Wolfe fans have a chance to buy
it, read it, and pass it on to your friends or progeny, and for this one
hurls at used book dealers the epithets of "parasite" and "blackmailer."
This deserves a good "Pfui!"

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Sunday, 31st March 2002 at 11:12:29 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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I suppose there are copyright laws against this, but when you consider that
this book is out of print and has no chance of being reprinted in the near
future, I'm not sure what the harm is really.

What's the difference between reading this book online and buying it used in
a bookstore? Either way, the author is not getting money for the sale.

Additionally, I submit that most people will not read a whole novel online
or off of the computer, so only those fans who are truly dedicated to the
Wolfe canon would read this book online. If it's a choice between having
the book fade away in to oblivion or posting it online for fans to read, I
choose the latter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd like to salute the ashes of American flags...and all the falling leaves
filling up shopping bags"

----- Original Message -----
From: [...]
To: wolfe-list@mirror.org
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online


> At 07:17 PM 3/30/02 -0600, [...] wrote:

>> Cool.......good work!

>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    Uncool......bad work. Don't we have laws against this sort of thing?

> [signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 15:08:34 (GMT +0100)
Subject: Fw: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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Just one other point. I might be wrong but it seems to me that reading a
book online is akin to reading it in a [public, i.e. "free"] library.
Downloading it - well, that might be another matter.
After all, what is a library? A place in which literary and artistic
materials, such as books, periodicals, newspapers, pamphlets, prints,
records, and tapes, are kept for reading, reference, or lending.
A place where education and such materials is not to be denied to those who
cannot afford to obtain it. Does anyone disagree that NW is essential
reading?
[signature].










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From: [...]
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 09:56:53 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Rubber Band online     [NeroWolfe]
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I feel that I should add to [...'s] admonition regarding infringement
of copyright.  Although [...] did offer last July to scan in some
works for another member, if she did do so, she didn't post a site
where the works could be accessed publicly.  I understand the
frustration of those who want to read the entire corpus, but are
unable to find certain books.
However, whether or not an author is alive has no bearing on the
issue; the copyrights are held by the estate of Rex Stout.  Further,
it's incumbent upon one who wishes to copy a work in part or whole,
to FIRST seek permission, rather than assuming it can be done unless
and until the copyright holder discovers it and objects.
I would continue to ask for the books in local bookstores, haunt used
bookstores and eBay, access the Nero Wolfe book exchange on Yahoo,
and make requests of other members.  New editions are being
published.  The Mystery Guild has made three previously out-of-print
titles available within the last few months.










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 10:40:27 (EST)
Subject: Books on the net
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In regard to the differences of opinion about the Rex Stout books posted on
the internet:

Stephen King published several 'e-books', which were available for download,
or reading, on the net.  Payment, however, was on the 'honor system'.  Some
paid, and I am sure some did not.

I am not certain of this, so, please, no, 'you are full of it replys', but
the consideration of it being placed in 'public domain' (internet) did not
allow Mr King to legally 'go after' those who did not pay for the downloading
of his written material.

The copyright laws are to prevent the stealing of material 'for profit'.
Since there is no fee to obtain this material, does it not fall in the same
category?  I am not sure, just posting a question, here.  In nearly all of
the paperbacks, there is a statement saying, copyright renewed, etc.

Perhaps Glenn Dixon, who wrote those wonderful additions to the 'Wolfe
Corpus', would be able to clarify this matter.  Also, to enlighten us on the
fact that it was not posted by the author, or, owner of the copyright.

I am fortunate to have all of the books, whereas, there are many who are
still searching for those elusive, Nero Wolfe books, that are sometimes so
difficult to find.  I am certain the person who posted them, was doing so,
kind heartedly (may not be a word, so sue me *laugh* have already received a
private e-mail in regard to a word, which someone 'stated' was not a word,
sent them dictionary publication, page and page number, for proof) to make
them available to people, who have been unable to find those particular
books.

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Sunday, 31st March 2002 at 13:12:03 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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> What's the difference between reading this book online and buying it used in
> a bookstore? Either way, the author is not getting money for the sale.

The author GOT PAID for the book the first time around.  No matter
how prettily you wrap it up, or how many excuses you make (even if
you talk yourself into believing them), copyright infringement is
THEFT.  Period.










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 00:44:52 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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[...] wrote:

> While I appreciate your opinion, nothing is that cut and dry in real life
> and I suspect you know that. The novel in question is currently out of
> print, and Bantam has no intention of printing it any time soon. True, if
> one buys a book used, the author got paid once for the book, but not the
> second, third, or fourth time. Is that fair to the author? If, as a fan, you
> really want to support the author you love to read is it morally right to
> buy used? The only way to buy this novel, currently, is used......what's the
> difference between buying it used and reading it online? Either way, the
> author and publisher get nothing. (I might even suggest that posting the
> novel online helps further the popularity of the series, thus promoting the
> sale of the books currently in print)

> It is my opinion that posting this particular book online is acceptable,
> given the reasons I have previously stated. True, it may be, technically, a
> copyright violation, but it helps to further the popularity of the series
> and poses no demonstrable detriment to the authors profit. Like I said
> before, would we, as fans, rather have this book fade away in to obscurity
> or have it avalible to fans via the Internet?

Garry Trudeau is currently poking fun in Doonesbury at Gen Xers who have
no comprehension or respect for copyright. Personally, I see the problem
as partly due to the influence of the Internet and the fact that people
who abuse copyright are also people who produce nothing of their own and
have no sense of value for a work. I'm not exactly an old timer railing
at kids, but I have copyrighted several books and I wouldn't stand for
someone stealing my work. Theft is theft is theft.

On the bright side, perhaps the copyright holder will sue you. It would
be fun to watch you try and use the above arguments to sway a judge.

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 08:05:10 (GMT -0500)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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At 12:44 AM 4/1/02 (GMT -0600), [...] wrote:


> [...] wrote:

{Snipping it all, but I wanted to leave clear who [...] is responding to.}

> On the bright side, perhaps the copyright holder
> will sue you. It would be fun to watch you try and
> use the above arguments to sway a judge.

Sue [...]? For what? Disagreeing with the prevailing view on the list?

The book was posted to the web by Alex, AKA Avenarious, not [...], who
merely thinks -- and not without justification  -- that having done so was OK.

If you can't even be bothered to properly direct your snide pseudo-threats,
why should we have the slightest respect for anything you have to say.

I think you owe [...] an apology, and an acknowledgement that you were wrong
-- right here on the list where you committed your misdeed. But I don't
expect it.

[signature]

     "What'dya expect? I'm a New Yorker!"
     -Anonymous New York Firefighter, 9/12/01










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 14:26:18 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Copyrights - Probably More Than You Wanted to Know
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[...] wrote:

> The question of Copyrights is an exceedingly complex
> one, and one which the proliferation of materials over the
> Internet has done nothing to simplify.


I used to teach graduate courses in First Amendment law, but all my
legal resources are in storage at the moment, so I can't look up
everything germane to the situation. Anyway, here in the US, the term of
copyright is in flux. The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act of 1998 has
caused a furor because it prevents most works first published after 1922
from entering the public domain. There is strong opposition to this, and
in February, the Supremes agreed to review its Constitutionality. And
yes, it was mostly created to help Disney.

If I read my dates correctly, all of the Wolfe books should still be
under copyright. Reproducing them on the net without expressed
permission is unlawful. Whether or not the book is actually in print at
a given time is largely irrelevant. The fair use doctrine certainly
doesn't apply, although those cases are fun to read, since the major
rulings involve defendants like Rick Dees, 2 Live Crew, and Mad
Magazine. I just like the idea of the Second Circuit debating over
whether "Louella Schwartz Describes Her Malady" is protected speech.

And no, I won't apologize to any pirates or those who encourage or
promote them. If you're going to fly the jolly roger, you might as well
get used to a few shots over the bow. I still think those who steal
intellectual property are beneath contempt.

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 31st March 2002 at 02:00:51 (GMT)
Subject: [NeroWolfe] Re: Rubber Band online
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I'm not casting stones here, but be aware that the copyright of a
written work does not expire when it has gone out of print. Only
Public Domain works are legally allowed to be reproduced on the net.

From the Project Gutenberg website:
"Works first published before January 1, 1923 with proper copyright
notice entered the public domain no later than 75 years from the date
copyright was first secured. Hence, all works whose copyrights were
secured before 1923 are now in the public domain.

Works published from 1923-1977 retain copyright for 95 years. No such
works will enter the public domain until 2019.

Rule of Thumb: Published before 1923 or published at least 75 years
ago in the U.S. OR published 50 years after the author's death in
some countries, 70 years after death in others."

More information can be found at
http://promo.net/pg/vol/pd.html

[...] I just wanted to let you know the implications.










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From: [...]
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 01:27:30 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Rubber Band online     [NeroWolfe]
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The only experience I've had is with J.D. Salinger related materials.
The differnce between Salinger and Stout is that one is still alive
and is notorious for his legal action.

One website, that when reloaded would generate a one line quote
from "The Catcher in the Rye," was contacted by Salinger's lawyers
and promptly shut down.

The operator of www.salinger.org removed some quotes from unpublished
materials at the request of the forementioned lawyers. Although his
actons were completely legal, he decided to oblige Salinger's wishes.

Several sites which features the notorious underpublished "22
Stories" have come and gone. These stories were published in
magazines through the 30's and 40's and have never been collected in
an authorized book.

It seems to me that the chances of a copyright holder of Stout's work
even finding your web-editions is very slim, and judging by the
evidence above, if they were discoved, the most you would have to do
is remove the sites.

That said, keep up the good work. A certain someone [...] has been
one of the blackmarket "22 Stories" distributers and, because "he"
keeps it prety small time, "he" has never had any contact from
Salinger's legal representatives.











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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 10:35:11 (GMT -0500)
Subject: Re: Fw: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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Trouble is, reading a book on screen--a whole book! -- my eyes sting just
thinking of it.  How much nicer to curl up in an easy chair or bed with a nice
portable, black print on white paper to read.  How much nicer to take to the
beach, where kicked-up sand won't bollix your system.  How much easier to read
while waiting in doctor's office or for the auto license lines to move.
Airports.  Cruise liners when you realize you're bored by shuffleboard.
So the temptation to download would be more than I, personally, would be able to
resist.
    As a hopeful author, I've never been too turned on by internet publishing.
The royalty and residual questions too amorphous.  I would have to make up my
mind to publish for free, and frankly, even though retired, it would be nice to
have a trickle of money coming in.  I most certainly would not like to see my
creations paraded as someone else's.  There's a question of authors' control
over their products.  After all, libraries buy the books they shelve, so even if
150 people read it for free, there has been at least one sale.  Not so on a
shimmery screen.
    [...] delurking because [...]'s postings insist on a reply.


[...] wrote:

> Just one other point. I might be wrong but it seems to me that reading a
> book online is akin to reading it in a [public, i.e. "free"] library.
> Downloading it - well, that might be another matter.
> After all, what is a library? A place in which literary and artistic
> materials, such as books, periodicals, newspapers, pamphlets, prints,
> records, and tapes, are kept for reading, reference, or lending.
> A place where education and such materials is not to be denied to those who
> cannot afford to obtain it. Does anyone disagree that NW is essential
> reading?
> [signature].










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 00:38:32 (GMT -0500 EST)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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I'm no saint, but Stealing is Stealing.  And once one crosses the line
then the difference between out of print / impossible to get and not out
of print / easy to get becomes somehow conviently somewhat blurred.










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Sunday, 31st March 2002 at 21:56:38 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
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While I appreciate your opinion, nothing is that cut and dry in real life
and I suspect you know that. The novel in question is currently out of
print, and Bantam has no intention of printing it any time soon. True, if
one buys a book used, the author got paid once for the book, but not the
second, third, or fourth time. Is that fair to the author? If, as a fan, you
really want to support the author you love to read is it morally right to
buy used? The only way to buy this novel, currently, is used......what's the
difference between buying it used and reading it online? Either way, the
author and publisher get nothing. (I might even suggest that posting the
novel online helps further the popularity of the series, thus promoting the
sale of the books currently in print)

It is my opinion that posting this particular book online is acceptable,
given the reasons I have previously stated. True, it may be, technically, a
copyright violation, but it helps to further the popularity of the series
and poses no demonstrable detriment to the authors profit. Like I said
before, would we, as fans, rather have this book fade away in to obscurity
or have it available to fans via the Internet?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd like to salute the ashes of American flags...and all the falling leaves
filling up shopping bags"


> The author GOT PAID for the book the first time around.  No matter
> how prettily you wrap it up, or how many excuses you make (even if
> you talk yourself into believing them), copyright infringement is
> THEFT.  Period.
> --










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 00:53:37 (GMT -0500)
Subject: OT : (as in off topic) (or how I use contact as a verb on my web site) 
	 RE: Solution for online Wolfe stories
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So Alex takes off the books, but puts up copywrited email.

Of course this is a public list, but it is served by private email.

It could have been a good April Fools Day scam, but.

Hmmmm, I have an idea lets spend the next day or two 
discussing the posting of the groups personal emails
by a member of the list that some people feel is not a
member of the list, or how about we start discussing 
why Alex is so hated by some members of the list.

Even though I am one of those long time members that 
likes to prove people wrong (or then again am I?) I can't
rightly remember why this whole Alex thing started, I must 
have been in really deep lurk mode then.

I'm just tired.

Alex hope all is well, I think it was right of you to take 
the books down.

Good night all.

[short signature]

Oooh, oooh, please start yelling and cursing remember I use 
Contact as a verb.

I really really am tired.

Hey remember when this rambling would have gotten me flamed 
for wasting bandwidth? ah the good old days of my 2800 and a
VT240.

I really have no idea what book we are reading as a group.
I am currently reading, [...].

[long signature]

-----Original Message-----
From: fulltext@toughguy.net 
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:41 PM
To: wolfe-list@mirror.org
Subject: Solution for online Wolfe stories


Following the discussion on publishing out-of-print Wolfe stories on
the Internet -- see excerpts at
http://avenarius.sk/stout/copyright/index.htm --
I have for now adopted the following solution:
http://avenarius.sk/stout/rubberband/index.htm

-- 
I averred,
aka Alex.










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 01:29:29 (GMT -0800 PST)
Subject: Re: Books on the net
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Hi Wolfellows,

> I am certain the person who posted them, was doing so, kind heartedly [...]
> to make them available to people, who have been unable to find those particular 
> books.

I am not. It was posted by an ex list member who was removed from the list 
the second time he carried out an insulting campaign. Since then he tried various 
methods to be accepted again or at least pester the list (including lies, abuse, 
mail-forgery etc.).* Just the kind of person Wolfe would invite to dinner. 
This is another boring attempt to raise sympathy by offering 'altruistic' volunteer
work... - unfortunately this fellow just can't get it right even when he wants to
appear Don Quixote. 

Take this quote (I'll wipe my keyboard shortly):

  'those that could not be bought in Europe in any way recently, as (according 
  to English language bookstores over here)' 

Now this is pure bullshit right from the factory. As for the chance of searching
_all_ the used bookstores in the Continent I'll let you be the judge (what if I 
just sold a copy of The mother hunt to one here in [...]?) but you should know 
that quite a few of them have online searchable database (I suppose none in 
Slovakia where the guy lives). But as of now (contrary to former allegations 
by the same subject) even a 14 year old can get a Visa or EC/MC bankcard (if no 
other way then by not dodging when they throw one at you in the bank) and order
a truckload of Wolfe from Amazon or Barnes and Noble or whatever. I did it and it
arrived so I know.  Slovakia may, from time to time, elect an extremist retired 
boxer for president and may not be admitted into NATO and EC soon but it isn't
Afghanistan.


*More info available upon request


[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 20:57:45 (GMT -0500)
Subject: Re: Copyrights - Probably More Than You Wanted to Know
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At 02:26 PM 4/1/02 (GMT -0600), [...] wrote: 

> And no, I won't apologize to any pirates or those 
> who encourage or promote them. If you're going to
> fly the jolly roger, you might as well get used
> to a few shots over the bow. I still think those
> who steal intellectual property are beneath 
> contempt.

And those who dare disagree with [...] have no right to be disputed with
civility. [...] is, quite simply, the Supreme Moral Arbiter of All Time and
Space, and all others must bow before her.

You know, every time I think this list has sunk to its nadir of
supercilious self-indulgent self-righteousness, some long-timer steps up to
the plate to prove me wrong.

Congratulations.
    


[signature]

     "What'dya expect? I'm a New Yorker!" 
     -Anonymous New York Firefighter, 9/12/01










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From: [...]
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 04:27:18 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Solution for online Wolfe stories   [NeroWolfe]
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
[...]

Sorry, Alex.  It's still theft and a copyright infringement to 
reproduce any portion of an author's work without the express consent 
of the copyright holder.  As to how to do this, you write the 
publisher. This information, as I'm sure you are aware, can be found 
inside the book.  There are and were several publishers of Stout's 
works.

For the three volumes (cookbook, Her Forbidden Knight, and a Nero 
Wolfe omnibus) republished and marketed by the Mystery Guild, see:
www.mysteryguild.com










=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 18:16:14 (GMT -0600)
Subject: OT Re: Copyrights - Probably More Than You Wanted to Know
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
You make it sound like the "fair use doctrine" is a bad thing. This law, 
for example, have allowed fans of TV, films, and books to produce "fan sites" 
that use pictures from said shows and films. Fuji TV has tried in the past to 
force web masters of "Iron Chef" fan sites to shut down, claiming copyright 
infringements. I believe that Paramount tried the same thing with "Star Trek" 
fan sites. 

All the best,
[...] 
"The Pirate"


> The fair use doctrine certainly doesn't apply, although those cases are 
> fun to read, since the major rulings involve defendants like Rick Dees, 
> 2 Live Crew, and Mad Magazine. I just like the idea of the Second Circuit 
> debating over whether "Louella Schwartz Describes Her Malady" is protected 
> speech.

> And no, I won't apologize to any pirates or those who encourage or promote 
> them. If you're going to fly the jolly roger, you might as well get used 
> to a few shots over the bow. I still think those who steal intellectual 
> property are beneath contempt.

> [signature]










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From: [...]
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 07:39:21 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Rubber Band online     [NeroWolfe]
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
I know it has been said before, but you really should check out eBay. 
In less than a year, I have managed to track down all but 5 of the 
books. I have seen collections of the complete corpus go for as 
little a $100 which is less than $3.00 per book. Most sellers would 
be willing to ship overseas if you are willing to pay a little extra 
postage. Email before bidding to make sure though. I usually try to 
buy collection featuring more than one of the titles I need and plan 
to sell the doubles after I have completed my own collection. [...] 










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Sunday, 31st March 2002 at 22:50:42 (GMT -0800 PST)
Subject: Books on Line
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
Has anyone thought to check to see if this book is still copywrited?
Copywrites do not extend into infinity.   If it is not, there is no problem.
If there is, anyone publishing it without permission is liable to prosecution.
While it may be out of print, I have seen paperback copies at many used book
stores, most at reasonable prices.  [signature]









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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 11:14:30 (GMT +0100)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
Re. all of this. Any comment on those blackmailers who ask the earth for
crappy paperback books just because they are out of print. Hail to Stout
getting the cash, but these speculators are just parasites (unless we are
talking about first editions, in which case I take back my comments).
[signature]










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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 09:34:06 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
In a message dated 3/31/2002 at 11:44:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[...] writes:


> The only way to buy this novel, currently, is used......what's the
> difference between buying it used and reading it online? Either way, the
> author and publisher get nothing. (I might even suggest that posting the
> novel online helps further the popularity of the series, thus promoting the
> sale of the books currently in print)


No mention of the small business owner who runs the used book store?

[signature]











=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 16:16:57 (GMT +0100)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
Good point, [...]. I will just add that, however, that although the Sherlock
Holmes works are freely available online, sales have not exactly dried up.
Perhaps because once having whetted one's appetite, one then one wants to
acquire the book the repeat the experience, or perhaps to form part of
discussion groups like this one. :-)

    [signature]


> No mention of the small business owner who runs the used book store?

> [signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 23:06:48 (GMT -0500)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
[...]

> Re. all of this. Any comment on those blackmailers who ask the earth for
> crappy paperback books just because they are out of print. Hail to Stout
> getting the cash, but these speculators are just parasites (unless we are
> talking about first editions, in which case I take back my comments).

If they are charging that much, it means someone is willing to pay that 
much. Furthermore, the existence of such a market means that other people 
who have books they do not need will offer them for sale rather than throw 
them out. All in all I think it is an admirable arrangement for recycling 
books.

[signature]










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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 16:07:40 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
In a message dated 4/1/2002 3:34:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[...] writes:


> Well, sure there is the, presumably, small business owner, but the crux of 
> the discussion was concerning the author's and publisher's rights. 

Actually, my question concerning the small business owner pertained to the 
comment that used book purchases do not benefit the author or publisher, so 
why not distribute the works for free.

I believe that the crux of the discussion concerned "legality."  I have heard 
many reasons given for the e-publication of the stories, but none that are to 
my knowledge legally acceptable.

Does anyone have a legal argument which allows for this form of story 
distribution?

While I applaud the idea behind the story distribution (allowing others 
access to the novel), it seems that it boils down to many people either not 
having the money or choosing not to spend the money on a used copy of the 
book.

I know that many list members have offered copies of the stories for little 
or no money.  Granted, they may not be in great shape, but could be no worse 
than a series of computer printed sheets.

The books aren't being burned and in jeopardy of never being seen or read 
again, they are available at a myriad of locations physically and virtually 
online.

Additionally, I've seen quite a few of them at Barnes and Noble's bookstores.

I just don't understand the need to try and justify the infringement.

I assumed that there was no legal malice intended, and that it was a matter 
of not knowing what is allowed and what is not.  Of course, I typically 
assume the best of a person, I enjoy life much more that way.

Now, if I can ask again from any of those in support of the story's 
e-distribution, what legal justification there is?

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 21:54:53 (EST)
Subject: Re: Wolfe's Rubber Band online
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
In a message dated 4/1/2002 4:45:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, [...] 
writes:


> Actually, I meant to refer to [...] (whome I spoke of in my previous post)
> who have 101 used NW's for sale. The books are not theirs, but belong to   
> but independent sellers - hence, [...] did not work hard to find copies, keep 
> them in good condition, etc. They are just lining their pockets on the     
> deal.

DISCLAIMER:  I don't consider the following to be Off topic as I specifically 
discuss availability and price of NW books.

In regards to people lining their pockets on a deal: why not? . . . if there 
are people willing to pay that much for them, why would we chastise those who 
are able to sell them for a higher amount.  

If I were able to sell my used car for $1000 to any number of people, should 
I feel bad because there are others who want to buy it for $500?

I have seen NW books for exceedingly high amounts and for such low prices 
that the cost of shipping is almost more than the selling price.  That is the 
risk one takes for selling (or buying) on a site like Amazon or Ebay.

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 11:31:04 (GMT -0600)
Subject: Re: Books on the net
---====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
> Stephen King published several 'e-books', which were available for download,
> or reading, on the net.  Payment, however, was on the 'honor system'.  Some
> paid, and I am sure some did not.

> I am not certain of this, so, please, no, 'you are full of it replys', but
> the consideration of it being placed in 'public domain' (internet) did not
> allow Mr King to legally 'go after' those who did not pay for the downloading
> of his written material.

> [signature]

As Steven King is the owner of the intellectual property to which the
writer refers, I can't see how this makes any kind of point regarding
the theft of said property.  He made his own choice to do this, as
was his right, and if I remember correctly, it didn't really work out
well for him financially.

This is not a "you are full of it" reply.  I respect your opinion.

[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 23:20:16 (GMT -0700)
Subject: OT: Re: Copyrights - Probably More Than You Wanted to Know
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---

From: [...]

> And those who dare disagree with [...] have no right to be disputed with
> civility. [...] is, quite simply, the Supreme Moral Arbiter of All Time and
> Space, and all others must bow before her.

            Oh, good.  In that case, SHE should know
            the answers:

                Did Archie and Lily ever sleep together?
                   Stout was always so coy about it, never coming
                   out with a direct statement, but just giving little
		   hints.
                And what is it about Saul and his wife?
                And was it right for Wolfe to let a murderer committ
                   suicide rather than face going to court?
                And about these rumors that Wolfe would frolic in the
                   plantrooms . . . .










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 07:24:05 (GMT -0700)
Subject: OT: So Sue Me!
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Tuesday,  2nd April 2002 at 14:13:26 (GMT -0700)
Subject: A Simple Query
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
What story are we on?



(This e-mail copywrited 2002 by D.A. Skinner.  All wrongs reserved.  No portion 
may be reproduced without the express permission of the author, which is 
hereby granted to all members of the Wolfe List in perpetuity as long as 
their "Cut," "Paste," "Copy," and "Reply" functions are in good working order.  
Offer invalid in Slovakia.  Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for a response.) 










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 22:25:12 (GMT)
Subject: Re: A Simple Query
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
> D.A. Skinner wrote:

"What story are we on?"  (in Mitchell, B.K.  A Simple 
Query.  Cyberspace: wolfe-list@mirror.org, 2 Apr. 2002.)

Good question.

--
[signature]










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From: [...]
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 07:12:00 (GMT -0700)
Subject: Copyrights - Probably More Than You Wanted to Know
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
The question of Copyrights is an exceedingly complex
one, and one which the proliferation of materials over the
Internet has done nothing to simplify.


Starters

Go to Cornell University's Legal Information Institute at
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ When it opens move the cursor
over "Law About . . . .", then move don to Intellectual Property.
Under Intellectual Property, select Copyright. The web-page
gives a short overview and a list of sources for the law and
for cases, too (U.S. law and cases). It even includes a link
to the Berne Convention.


Online Sources of Information

University of North Carolina Copyright Primer
http://www.unc.edu/policy/copyright_primer.html
        Some interesting information about getting caught etc.
        and what about MP3's (audio downloads)

Sheridan College
http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/acadserv/copyright/crprimer.html#appa
        Probably more information than you want

For the most part you can easily find information on copyrights
and copyright law by searching in any online search engine for:
copyright primer


Some Background

        First, copyright law is in turmoil at the moment because the
original laws dealt with print materials. Movies, records, CD's,
electronic formats of all kinds simply were inconceivable to the
authors of the original law.
        Second, it is interesting that (in the U.S anyway), a copyright
was for a period of 28 years with a renewal option for another 28,
for a total of 56 years. (Come to think of it, it may have been
17 years at one point.) In any case, Fer-de-Lance is certainly
more than 56 years old.
        However, the laws were changed in the 70's. Essentially,
copyright was changed to the author's lifetime plus 50 years.
This has been extended recently to 70 years, mostly at the
instigation of the Walt Disney Co. which does not want to
lose it's copyright privileges over Mickey Mouse.
        Third, there are complexities in that the question now is
"Does Stout's -- or his estate -- copyright over FDL extend
from the original publication [and, thus, for 58 years, roughly]
or from his death [or, until 2026 or 2046]?"
        A separate question is copyright holdings on the characters.
That is, even if FDL is out of copyright, does the estate still
control the characters? Does permission need to be obtained
to write a pastiche using Wolfe and Archie?
        Further, please note that while a work itself may be in
the public domain, the particular edition that you have access
to may be copyrighted.


Some Comments on Online Availability

        First there are two companies which will provide online
access to copyrighted materials for a fee. NetLibrary and
ebrary (respectively found at www.netlibrary.com and
www.ebrary.com). The Phoenix, AZ Public Library has
access to some online books via netlibrary, but you have
to have a Phoenix Public Library borrower's card to access
them.
        Second, there is the Gutenberg Project at http://promo.net/pg/
whose goal, briefly is to put up online all published works
prior to about 1914 (or 1917 or thereabouts) (essentially anything
published before 1914, in the US anyway, is out of copyright).
This is why Stout's book "Under the Andes" is available online.
It was published long enough ago that it was out of copyright
before any of the changes went through, so it is available to be
put up online without any difficulties.


Legalities et al.

        Just because a book is out of print and there are no plans
by the major publishers to re-publish a book, it is still not
legal to put it up online without permission of the copyright
holder. One problem with this is that different countries have
different copyright laws and different lengths of time before
materials enter the public domain. Likewise, U.S. law has
little effect in, say, the Czech Republic. Unless the parties
involved are signatories to the Berne Convention. For years,
Taiwan was not, and therefore a hotbed of "pirating" of books,
records, and other things. I believe it is now, though.
        So, no matter how much you may want a book, and no
matter what the in-availability of it is, it may not be legally
available to you even if someone does put it up on line.


Further References and Information

        I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. The only
reasonable and sure way to determine the copyright
of a material is to have an attorney who specializes
in the field deal with it.
        For additional information, check the online sources
listed above.
        If you wish to comment on this note, fine, but please
do NOT direct any copyright questions to me.  Find
a copyright lawyer.


        [signature]









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From: Avenarius <a@avenarius.sk>
To: <nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, 1st April 2002 at 15:40:00 (GMT +0200)
Subject: Re[4]: Rubber Band online     [NeroWolfe]
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
Hi [...],
on Monday, 1st April 2002 at 09:56:53 GMT, you wrote:

> New editions are being published.  The Mystery Guild has made three
> previously out-of-print titles available within the last few months.

Really? That's great to hear. Where could I find info on which titles
these are and whether they can be ordered from Europe?

> I would continue to ask for the books in local bookstores, haunt
> used bookstores and eBay, access the Nero Wolfe book exchange on
> Yahoo, and make requests of other members.

The former may work for Wolfe fans in English-speaking countries.
There's no Stout in English in these parts of Europe either in (used)
bookstores or in libraries. Western online bookstores don't accept
Eastern credit cards and some, like half.com, restrict their
customership to the US.

I for one have nothing to complain of as through generosity of fellow
Wolfe fans in the US up to 10 Wolfe volumes have already been donated
to me in recent years. Still, it remains a fact that I started
collecting Wolfe volumes in English in 1990, and after 12 years I'm
only about halfway through (about 85% through for novels). Many US
Wolfe fans envy me the fact there are still so many unread Wolfe
tales waiting in store for me, however I'd rather not wait another 12
years before I manage to read them all.  8-)  Incidentally, I lay no
value on physically possessing the volumes -- all I'd like is to read
them and then I may pass them on to others. However, as I enjoy
rereading Wolfe a lot, it would be great to have the text itself at
hand, so making an electronic edition available for everyone seemed
like a great idea on [...]'s part. Such electronic editions would only
substitute for the local libraries' failure to meeting their task, ie.
providing access for quick reference to a classic writer's complete
corpus. In Bratislava you may check out the complete works in English
of Stout's contemporaries such as Hemingway or Faulkner or Hammett or
Chandler but there's nothing by Stout except a mass of linguistically
insufferable Slovak and Czech and Hungarian and German translations.

> Although [...] did offer last July to scan in some works for another
> member, if she did do so, she didn't post a site where the works
> could be accessed publicly.

That is nonetheless exactly what she intended to do -- all I did was
take up her idea after she vanished from cyberspace in the fall of
last year. I had talked to [...] privately and she had sent me an
email where she had stated the exact location of her website where she
planned to store out-of-print Stout texts for those who couldn't find
them in print. I may forward you the email if you wish. [...]'s site
is currently defunct and she hasn't been answering emails (I'm cc-ing
her on this one). Let's trust she's just busy but otherwise fine.

> it's incumbent upon one who wishes to copy a work in part or whole,
> to FIRST seek permission, rather than assuming it can be done unless
> and until the copyright holder discovers it and objects.

You're very likely correct. Does anyone happen to know where exactly
one might ask for such a permission regarding Rex Stout's texts? Not
that I expect the permission would be granted; as someone commented on
the other Wolfe list, "it is better to ask forgiveness than
permission." Still, as I intend to devote myself seriously to online
publishing in future, cooperating with local government agencies to
bring Slovak literary classics to the web, I can't afford to provoke
any major outrage legally speaking. If what I perceive as a harmless
measure to make Stout's writing more accessible to fans around the
world is perceived as "theft" in the US, I suppose I'll have to remove
the files. As the original idea of putting out-of-print Wolfe on the
web first originated in this Wolfe online venue I'd welcome the list's
owners' opinion on this. [...] votes against, what about [...]
and [...]? If they concur with [...] I'll be glad to move the
files into off-line mode until a solution acceptable to everyone is
found. How would Rex Stout, Wolfe, and Archie themselves look at this?
I suspect Wolfe and Archie would logomachize a lot over the issue of
out-of-print. Poor Archie, he penned them all!

--
Yours,
Alex. (in Bratislava, Slovakia)

The Rubber Band:   http://avenarius.sk/stout/rubberband/index.htm
Prisoner's Base:   http://avenarius.sk/stout/prisonersbase/index.htm
The Mother Hunt:   http://avenarius.sk/stout/motherhunt/index.htm

[processed by "The Bat!", Version 1.60]










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From: Avenarius <a@avenarius.sk>
To: attorney for Rex Stout's estate
Date: Friday, 5th April 2002 at 23:57:17 (GMT +0200)
Subject: Re: Works of Rext Stout
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
Dear Mr. [...]:

this is a reply to your email from
Thursday, 4th April 2002 at 09:39:02 (GMT -0500),
Message-ID: <04poauo9tkk8tgndghipbmqi0m9b42up11@4ax.com>.

I confirm the non-existence on my website of any webpages devoted to
the presentation of Rex Stout's writing either in excerpts or in full
text. If any such online files existed, they were later destroyed and
cannot today nor at any later time be shared with anyone by any means.
I am not distributing or publishing, nor will I ever in the future be
distributing or publishing Rex Stout's copyrighted works in any
fashion unless authorized to do so by the copyright owner(s).

Regarding your query about the number of visitors to my website at
this time or any time in the past, viewing the site's access logs is a
paid service which I am not receiving from my virtual server provider,
so that to my knowledge the data that interest you do not exist. A
single page counter monitors access to all the webpages across the
quotations website; it only records the aggregate number of hits, not
the time when any hits occurred.

Regarding your query about the dates when any files first appeared on
my site, all the data available to me is publicly displayed on the
Site History webpage, http://avenarius.sk/history.htm . The dates
of upload of any temporary trial files not mentioned therein could
only be stated on a conjectural basis and would therefore be
misleading. Mine is a website that is only starting to get developed
on an experimental basis.

Please convey, if possible, to Mrs. [...] and to Mrs.
[...] my apology for everything they may have found
objectionable in my activities.

Sincerely yours,

Alexander Avenarius
[full contact information including home telephone number]

www.avenarius.sk

-- 
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From: Avenarius
To: <wolfe-list@mirror.org>
Date: Saturday, 3rd August 2002 at 19:19:27 (GMT +0200)
Subject: Re: Books on the net
--====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====---
On Tuesday, 2nd April 2002 at 01:29:29 (-0800 PST),
[...] wrote to <wolfe-list@mirror.org>:

> But as of now (contrary to former allegations by the same subject)
> even a 14 year old can get a Visa or EC/MC bankcard (if no other way
> then by not dodging when they throw one at you in the bank) and
> order a truckload of Wolfe from Amazon or Barnes and Noble or
> whatever. I did it and it arrived so I know.

I have visited all possible Slovak banks in recent days, trying to set
up a Visa or MasterCard with them. Hungarian schoolgirls must be
better off than most Slovak adults, because all the banks told me I
was not eligible. Among other conditions you need to have a permanent
monthly income of at least $ 250. My monthly budget is only $ 210,
though. So I must continue using my Slovak credit-card that is not
accepted by Western websites. So even if someone were to offer the
entire Rex Stout corpus for one dollar, I couldn't order and buy it.

I averred
aka Alex.

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